Talkin' Wilco With Band's Biographer

By: Brett Hickman

Tuesday May 15, 2007

Greg Kot Interview
There isn't a rock critic more in tune with the band Wilco than Greg Kot. Kot, who has been with the Chicago Tribune (and various other publications) since 1990 has covered Wilco leader Jeff Tweedy since the singer-songwriter's days in Uncle Tupelo. Kot also wrote the definitive biography on Wilco, Learning How To Die, released in 2004 to great acclaim. With Chicago Sun-Times rock critic Jim DeRogatis, Kot hosts NPR's Sound Opinions, wherein the two discuss what's going on in music that week, looking deeper than your average Rolling Stone missive.

On the eve of the band's latest album Sky Blue Sky Static Multimedia talks to Kot about the band's past, present and future, giving keen insight into inner-band dynamics and the mindset of Tweedy.

Static Multimedia: What was the first experience, or the first thing that Jeff or Wilco did that really grabbed your attention?

Greg Kot: I think it was the Being There record. When I heard that record, that was pretty much the eye and ear opener for me. That first song, "Misunderstood," that sounded like nothing Jeff had attempted before - at least that I'd heard. And that was a pretty stunning moment for me. I thought it was really well executed; it was kind of like a complete out of left field move, and at the same time it didn't feel gratuitous. It felt like a totally sincere and honest statement. But at the same time I didn't expect anything at all like that from him. I didn't expect it to sound like that; I didn't expect it to be executed like that. I didn't think Wilco was capable of playing like that. I didn't know Tweedy was capable of doing something like that- or was interested in doing anything like that. So that was it; it was pretty stunning. And I think just the breadth of that album, it was a strong, really ambitious record, and that was when I thought man, this guy…there's an artist here. There's potentially a major artist making this record.

The live shows at that point - they were still drawing on previous material. They weren't quite as evolved as they would become, would you say?

GK: Well, the first album was kind of thrown together I think. The band was still recovering from the whole Uncle Tupelo fallout. I think Jeff wanted to get something out there quickly to establish himself. And I think it was just done too quickly. I don't think it was thought through very well. And then they added a guitar player after that record was made; Jay Bennett came into the band after that first record, and it was kind of a case of integrating Jay into the band and figuring out what Jay could do. If you listen to the early shows with Jay, he's playing a lot of guitar. A lot of guitar. A lot of leads, lot of fills, really busy. He sounds by far like the best musician in the band, but he also doesn't sound like he belongs in the band. It sounds like what he's doing and what the band is doing, they're on two separate planets. And I think they started to integrate that stuff as the tour went along. As that long, long tour after the first album proceeded, they started to gel a little bit as a band. I think that the comfort zone that they found enabled them to do Being There. So things were getting a lot better by that point.

From Being There to Summerteeth, what's your take on the band changing their sound yet again?

GK: I think it was a case of Jay and Jeff closing ranks a lot of ways. I think Jeff really started to lean on Jay a lot, as kind of a counterpart - a foil- a musical inspiration. I think he was a muse in some ways, for Jeff. Kind of like he was the other half that completed Jeff. So Jeff would write songs and Jay would add really good ideas to them, and sort of complete them and take them somewhere else. So the collaboration really got tight, to the exclusion of maybe some of the other guys in the band. I think Ken Coomer and John Stirratt sort of felt left out in a lot of ways. And there was never a lot of stability in that spot in the band, either; it was kind of a two-man band that made Summerteeth in a lot of ways. It was an incredibly elaborate record - they spent a lot of time together, just riffing on ideas and developing those musical ideas.

In your research for the book, how exactly was the dynamic brought out? Was it just Jeff and Jay working together and not saying anything to the other guys, or purposely telling them, 'we're going to work some stuff out, and you guys stay behind'?

GK: There was just some obsessive behavior going on there. It wasn't a case of them saying to the other guys 'don't show up,' it was just that they were always there. And the other guys were kind of like, well, what the hell's going on here? I thought we finished that song already. And Jeff and Jay would just keep working and working on stuff. It got to be obsessive. They had some similar issues psychologically, and medically, that they sort of bonded on, and they became really close friends on a lot of levels, and that part spilled over to the musical collaboration, and they were kind of joined at the hip there for awhile. They spent a long, long time in the studio. So it wasn't like they were saying 'don't show up,' it was kind of like it doesn't really matter whether you show up or not, we're just going to keep working on this thing. We're going to keep doing what we do. And I think Ken and John...they didn't feel like they were part of the inner circle; they didn't feel like their ideas were necessarily being sought out, and I think they were more baffled by the process. Like 'why are you guys spending so much time together?' I think there were a lot of reasons for that, and not all of them were healthy.

With regards to the eventual fallout between Jeff and Jay, it seems like an example of how people who are dependent on each other - not necessarily comparing them to this, but people who are addicted - in a relationship, one of them comes out of it and decides that they want to move on, or get better, and the other is still dependent on that relationship?

GK: I think you nailed it. I think it's just that one guy moves on and sees it for what it is, and the other guy… in a lot of ways, I think they started moving on different paths. Summerteeth really empowered Jay. He had a lot of say, a lot of input on that record, and I think he felt like an equal member to Jeff in the band. And I think Jeff contributed to that feeling. He was complicit in that. And I think at a certain point Jeff realized that he was heading down this path, he picked up some really bad habits and was self-medicating, his judgment was pretty cloudy, and I think he realized what was happening too late to do anything about it. It's like the train had already left. Jay really felt empowered, and felt like it's the Jeff and Jay band now, and obviously that's not the way Jeff felt at all. But he didn't see it for what it was; he was too far inside of it. And when Jay was let go at the end of the Yankee Hotel Foxtrot thing, it was building from that moment. Jeff had made the realization that Jay felt like he was the guy running the band, and that wasn't how Jeff envisioned it, obviously.

It does seem from reading things and talking to certain people that part of it is like where somebody's born and they have a twin, and they sort of start swallowing or consuming the other twin because it's dying…a bizarre comparison, perhaps, but there's something about Jay slowly sapping control while Jeff was perhaps at his weakest.

GK: That's certainly the interpretation I got from that series of events. That's kind of the way the book is structured, and that's certainly Jeff's story. And I think Jay would deny that. He would say 'That's not the way. I didn't take control. I didn't take anything that wasn't already there for me to have. It was a different band with me in it, and Jeff wanted this collaboration, so he should've been the one to say he didn't want this. So why did he go far with it? Why did we end up being co-songwriters? Why did we end up being co-producers, basically?' You don't exonerate Jeff or Jay in this. It happened, and it's very understandable why it happened. And then once the smoke cleared, Jeff said wait a minute, I don't want this. I don't want this band. And at the end of the day when it came down to 'whose band is it?,' well, it's Jeff's band, and Jay was becoming a problem. Because he envisioned it as Jeff and Jay's band, and it just wasn't going to be that way.

It definitely seems like certain things were allowed to happen, and that gave the impression that 'well, if this is allowed to happen, then obviously…' Because there was a real stream of poor communication in that band for the longest time.

GK: What it really comes down to is that the communication was just terrible. If only one person screwed that up, it would be wrong. At the same time, Jeff wants to be the center of the band, but, at the time, he was a very poor leader. It's like a manager running a company. You have to take control of the company at some point, and he wasn't. He was very passive and allowed things to happen the way they did. That was his fault; he should've taken the reins and become a little more assertive. But he was not. And as a result, the situation became what it was. So I hold Jeff as responsible for that as anybody. I think in some ways Jay was led to believe that he was something that he was not expected to be in that band.

And there's also the thing of Jeff growing up. There's the part in the book where you quote his father about driving the car without oil until the engine breaks down, and his wife laughing at one of his new songs where he talks about washing clothes and he doesn't even know how to do laundry. It's this whole infant thing. Because these musicians are not exactly the most grown-up people.

GK: It's more an issue of practicality. In a lot of ways, he's incredibly mature and very grown up. And in other ways, it's these commonsense details…everything from social interaction to how you pay the bills. Trying to order a pizza. Those are the kind of things that just aren't a major concern, and never have been. There's no course for that stuff. He's gotta learn the hard way; they learn by doing it. And they learn by fucking up over and over and over again. It's kind of sad, because Jeff wants to make art. That's what he's great at. And all the other stuff is kinda, well, oh yeah, I gotta take care of that too. An afterthought. And when it does go down, it's a shock - like, oh, I should've taken care of that a year ago, or two years ago. And now I've got this mess on my hands. And to his credit, he's learned from those mistakes. He's starting to figure that out. But I think unfortunately, a lot of bands have to live out the shit that a lot of us do in private, in public. There's more of a public bloodletting. And that's kind of what happened with Wilco in those years with Jeff and Jay.

And now it's kind of understood that the way things go is that it's not a forever position. People see they're free to come and pretty much go as they please. I think fans have gotten the idea that Nels may not be in the band for even another album. He might be there another 5 years or more.

GK: I would advise no one to put any immediate...if they think that Wilco's lineup is going to be stable from here on out, I think they've got another thing coming. You can never assure that. It's not part of the way things work. It's not a malicious thing, it's just that people change and they're not inclined to be the one who walks up and says 'hey, I've done my thing. I'm ready to move on.' He's (Tweedy) very much that type on an artist; he feels like he contributes everything he can, he's got nothing new to say in that context, so he moves on. So I don't think we'd be surprised to see more movement in the band eventually. At the same time, I think Jeff's really happy with the interaction and collaboration of the band. I think there's never been a more collaborative approach to any album. This one had all 6 guys as part of the process.

I hate to put you on the spot, but what's been your favorite incarnation, live, of the group?

GK: That's a good question. You know, I don't know if I'd put one above the other…they all had their moments...not all, but I think there were certain phases of that band that I really liked. Like I think the Being There tour had a lot of energy, and an unhinged quality to it that was pretty unparalleled in Wilco's career before or since. I remember seeing a couple of shows at the Wiltern in LA, and seeing Tweedy dive into the audience in the middle of one song. And I remember that I was talking to Bill Bentley the next day, who worked with them for a long time at Warner Bros (as a publicist), and I said Bill, you wouldn't believe what I saw last night. I mean, this unbelievable punk rock show by this band on your label called Wilco. And he was laughing. And I go, Tweedy dived into the audience, and he goes no, you're making that up. That didn't happen. And I said, it happened. It was total punk rock - a savage assault. It was pretty cool. And I liked that band; it seemed to have a lot of energy. It was coming apart in a lot of ways, because they were just so…they were living on the extreme edge. They were touring so much that I think they were kind of out of their minds through half that tour. But it led to this very crazed passion on stage. So I loved that circa '98 band on the road. And one of the best shows I saw - maybe the best Wilco show I saw was the first show right after A Ghost Is Born was put out, and the lineup had shifted. And Nels had been introduced to the band.

In Dekalb (IL)?

GK: Yeah, in Dekalb.

That was a great show.

GK: There was a lot of emotion in the air, and I think everybody in the audience knew what was going on, and what Jeff was coming off of, and the band was new. I mean, who knows what could've happened? There was an incredible amount of tension in the air, like, what's going to happen? What's this going to sound like? And they got through it, and they did this amazing version of "Handshake Drugs" with three guitars. Jeff, Pat and Nels that was just freakin'...it sounded like the Velvet Underground's second album. It was that White Light, White Heat kind of intensity. I thought that was a great show; a great incarnation of that band. And in fact, I think the incarnation of the band now, with Nels in the band, I'm amazed by the stuff that guy does. And Glenn too. Glenn coming into the band has just been...you know, there's some shows where I just watch Glenn. Whenever those guys are on stage, something pretty cool usually happens. The thing about the new band is that at a certain point, they sort of evolved their setlist, and they became very predictable in the songs they would play and the way they would play them. And I thought they really needed to work some new material into the set. It was almost like they milked that a little too far, and I was waiting for them to throw a wrench in the whole thing. To shift things up again. Because these players are so good. I guess what I wanted was more of a free-for-all quality to it; it was a little more structured than it needed to be sometimes. But again, we'll see.

It is definitely going to be interesting, because the new album skews quieter, or at least more reserved by comparison. There's really not much in their catalog that completely fits, so I don't know if they're going to wedge some more crowd-pleasing numbers into it. I'll be interesting to see how they blend the new material in with everything else. And speaking of new material, what are your impressions of it?

GK: Oh, the new record? It was a surprise. As usual. I always expect to be surprised. I think people bring a certain number of expectations to a record by a band they've enjoyed. And the unspoken thing is that 'I hope the next record is kind of like that one.' And Wilco, to an extent, hasn't really done that. They bounce between extremes. So again, they surprised me with this one. I was expecting a real guitar-shredding album, just because Nels is in the band, and with 3 guitarists going at once. And it is a guitar-heavy record, but not in the way I expected it to be. And foolish me, you know? It's stupid to even impose those sort of expectations on a band like Wilco, because Tweedy is going to totally do his own thing every time. I think right now he's in a space where he felt like making some living room music. Some music where it's (about) friends sitting in a living room together, and making intimate music together. So I think that's the vibe, and there is some really cool guitar work on the record. The interplay is very intimate and very intricate - it does have a Television sort of a vibe. Like the guitarists doing their own little thing, where it's ill-defined as to what's the lead guitar and what's the rhythm guitar. They're both playing a mixture and sort of complimenting each other. So that's interesting to me. Right now my big reservation is that it's too much of the same kind of thing; it's more of a mood record. Sort of sits in one spot, pretty consistently from beginning to end, and I think the real strength of the record might be Tweedy's singing. I think his singing has continued to get better, more interesting, more varied, and I can hear some kind of soul inflections. You almost hear a blue-eyed soul thing coming in, like Alex Chilton type take on the folk/country/rock tradition. So that's interesting. And like any Wilco record, you have to listen to it at least 10 times in different contexts in order to get a handle on it. And in about another week I'm going to be there with that, but I'm not there right now.

The interesting thing about this one that I also read, and I don't know if you know this or not, but you mentioned Jim O'Rourke. And he was originally the person who mixed the album but they scrapped it, which I was surprised by.

GK: Yeah, I heard that. And that's a key question. I would love to hear that mix. I guess they went to this guy Jim Scott, who I believe worked on the first Wilco record.

I don't remember myself.

GK: I'm not 100% sure on this, I'll have to check, but I think he worked on the first record. He was the guy that AM got turned to to make that record a little more coherent than it was. And he ended up actually mixing it - he wasn't the producer, per se, but he was definitely a mixer. So I think that's the same name. If I'm not mistaken, it's the same guy. And I think it's kind of interesting, because this record - the new record - shows a lot of similarities with that first record.

Right, it's the only other album you could in any way compare it to. And one thing about A Ghost is Born feels like a rarities kind of collection. It seems like it's all these different styles and experiments on one album. Like songs that were lost somewhere And definitely it's the least coherent of the albums, so you didn't know what to expect coming into this new one. And like you said, you never know what to expect. And Jeff said in an interview that fans always get upset with each album.

GK: Oh yeah. And I think that he's okay with that. I think he would be disappointed if people were like, 'Oh, yeah, cool. Another Wilco record. It's exactly what I expected.' I think that would be the most devastating thing you could say to Tweedy. I really do.

Do you foresee any sort of new topics creeping into his material perhaps? Has he ever indicated anything about wanting to go into a political bent, or do you ever foresee him just taking Wilco away and becoming just Jeff Tweedy, finally?

GK: Well, asking me to read Tweedy's mind...it's like, there's just no way. I think Jeff would be very, very displeased if he weren't in a different place with his mind and his creative ambitions 6 months from now, a year from now, from where he is today. The one thing I think that's really important to know about Jeff is that he draws inspiration from everywhere. The antennae are always out, and there's no telling where he's going to find something fascinating, something that inspires him. So like I said, to predict...to sort of lump this guy in and say the times are political and demand a political statement…he is so far removed from that and so against that mindset and so not about that mindset that he's impossible to predict. He really is a contrarian- well, not a contrarian, but…a contrarian implies that he intentionally goes against the grain just because. But he goes against the grain because of his nature, because he doesn't even pay attention to what the grain is. He doesn't even know where it is. It's kind of like he doesn't care. He's more on his own quest. He's searching for his own thing, and his own inspiration. And that can come from anywhere. I think that's why he's the artist he is - because you can't predict that. The filter that he has is totally not about following what everyone else is going. I could no more predict him than when the end of the world is going to be. It's impossible. I would look foolish making a guess about that.

I wasn't sure if in discussions if he ever said anything about where his head might be. The only reason I said something political is that with less strife in his own personal life, maybe he would want to target something in the world to get his dander up.

GK: Well, I know he's been upset about politics and what happens in the world for a long time; it's not like he doesn't pay attention to that stuff. I think it's incredibly depressing to him, and he's outraged. Frankly, he's outraged by a lot of this stuff. But it's one thing to be outraged in your private life and then want to write a song about it that he believes is meaningful. I think he has issues with what a prospective political song can say, what it should say, how it should say it. He's seen so many stupid examples of that. I don't think he wants to add to the pile. And most of all, I think he wants to do stuff that moves him. He's never thinking about, 'what can I write that's going to inspire my audience?' it's 'What can I write that's going to inspire me to want to play this song 100 nights a year?' I think that's where his head's at.

I think that's what always sticks with people longer anyway, is when it's a personal statement that you're able to attach yourself to anyway. You know, the other thing I was thinking about in regards to him not wanting to make overt political statements is that I think he's tried to avoid...you know, even though he jokes about the poet label, or the folk thing, especially that was reinforced with the Woody Guthrie thing, do you think he just doesn't want to be stigmatized to any particular facet of any specific genre?

GK: Absolutely. I think that's part of the whole modus operandi. Like, 'I just did A, why do I want to do A again? I want to do X, Y, and Z.' It's really interesting to see the wide variety of stuff that he actually does listen to. Like those Conet Project tapes, he drives around and listens to music all the time. And he would drive around listening to that stuff. And it would inspire him! Because it's not some academic exercise to him. He'd be getting off on that stuff. He's a very, very good listener. He listens to music all the time and really gets inside of stuff. And that's the stuff that really moves him. So like I said, the sky's limit in terms of what he wants to touch on and how he wants to approach it.

Okay, one last question, and it's sort of putting your show (Sound Opinions) onto you: Which Wilco album do you take if you only could take one to your desert island? And why?

GK: That's a good question too. It'd have to be Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. Just because I think it's the most complete beginning to end album they've ever done. The sequencing, the way the songs play off each other, the care with which that record was put together. Then at the same time the raw emotion that's underlying it all. I think it's just the perfect album in a lot of ways. Even that little segue into "Heavy Metal Drummer" that people think is so lightweight. Those 20, 30 seconds that set up that song, the transition from the previous song, it's just genius. I get chills every time I hear it. I can't even imagine the song without it. And that to me says these songs are linked permanently together in a really beautiful kind of way. So that would be the one. And the other music out there that I really, really love is the Wilco songs on the first Mermaid Avenue record. The Wilco half of that record. I 'm not a fan of the Bragg stuff, but I think the Wilco performances on that record are just frickin' amazing. If there's one single Jeff Tweedy song, I would have to say "One by One." If you listen to the last minute and a half of "One by One," that is some of the most moving music I've ever heard. It's absolutely devastating, how well he sings that song. So I'd have to say that's my favorite Wilco song, even though it's technically a Woody Guthrie song, but it's Wilco collaborating, I guess you could say, with Woody Guthrie. That single moment, and then Yankee Hotel Foxtrot.